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	<title>Comments on: The collaborative textbook A Grammar of Modern Indo-European, already in pre-version 4, heading for its second printed edition</title>
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	<link>http://dnghu.org/Indo-European/2009/01/the-collaborative-textbook-a-grammar-of-modern-indo-european-already-in-pre-version-4-heading-for-its-second-printed-edition/</link>
	<description>Proto-Indo-European Language and Europe&#039;s Modern Indo-European Language</description>
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		<title>By: carlos</title>
		<link>http://dnghu.org/Indo-European/2009/01/the-collaborative-textbook-a-grammar-of-modern-indo-european-already-in-pre-version-4-heading-for-its-second-printed-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-1757</link>
		<dc:creator>carlos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jan 2009 18:00:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dnghu.org/Indo-European/?p=359#comment-1757</guid>
		<description>@Mithridates:

With &quot;the expected changes in MIE concept(s)&quot; I meant the logical changes that follow the newest conceptions agreed on in our Indo-European revival project.

To understand it, one needs to have followed the previous changes in the Indo-European revival concept, which can be inferred (not easily, that&#039;s true) from recent changes in the grammar and in our websites. Almost every writing in or about MIE &quot;drags&quot; so to speak older (now deemed more or less &quot;wrong&quot;) concepts, and they have to be revised accordingly in new writings and newer versions of the grammar: hence the adjective &quot;expected&quot;, different from - for example - the new section included, &quot;Indo-European in Use&quot;, or some sections deleted, which were not &quot;expected&quot;.

The MIE conceptions are more or less summarized by the different Grammar version numbers, but simplifying them, as in the book, we could say that:

&lt;strong&gt;1)&lt;/strong&gt; &quot;Europaio&quot; (from the first grammar, &lt;em&gt;Europaio: A Grammar of the European Language&lt;/em&gt;) was a very simple concept of using a modern (but common) Late Proto-Indo-European language. It was &lt;strong&gt;more prescriptive than descriptive&lt;/strong&gt;, &quot;choosing&quot; - more or less arbitrarily - to use certain cases, to use some (modern) vocabulary and not other, to write laryngeals with their later output, etc.

&lt;strong&gt;2) &lt;/strong&gt;Modern Indo-European was a revision of that simple Europaio concept, trying to bring it to a &lt;strong&gt;more natural Late PIE&lt;/strong&gt;, with the introduction of etymological notes, further explanations, etc. It tried to overcome the &quot;Esperanto-like&quot; appearance of the first (prescriptive) Europaio, but still that revived Late PIE seemed too artificial, as it selected European dialectal nominal and verbal forms.

&lt;strong&gt;3) &lt;/strong&gt;The 3rd version meant a full revision of the verbal system and an introduction to the Late PIE syntax - instead of just a selected modern European one. The inclusion of the concept of the&lt;strong&gt; Northwestern dialect &lt;/strong&gt;was necessary, as it was obvious that we couldn&#039;t use Late PIE, but a common, modern European PIE without laryngeals, and thus we had to select some dialectal form (in our case, EIE). A purer PIE vocabulary was recommended.

&lt;em&gt;-- Here came the first printed edition, planned for march,  published in august, but still with a lot of paragraphs and whole sections left uncorrected in the rush --&lt;/em&gt;

&lt;strong&gt;4) &lt;/strong&gt;Following that (v.3) concept of the Europe&#039;s Indo-European language (EIE) to be revived, the necessary emphasis is put on the revival of dialectal Proto-European, as well as on the reconstruction of common Middle Proto-Indo-European or Indo-Hittite (PIH) roots for etymology, as a way to know how to reconstruct the vocabulary for &lt;strong&gt;other living PIE dialects&lt;/strong&gt; at the time when EIE was spoken, i.e. Proto-Greek, Proto-Indo-Iranian and Common Anatolian. Instead of a unified scheme, a plural (natural) one has to be accepted, however difficult it might be to implement.

I think it is more or less evident from each minor change made to the grammar, and obviously in full revisions, that the underlying concept remains the same (a &lt;strong&gt;common PIE for Europe&lt;/strong&gt;), but that it needed (and needs) to be specific about every detail of the language(s) we want to revive, especially taking on account that they are reconstructed (AKA &quot;hypothetical&quot;) proto-languages. 

It is, in any case, a revival of a &lt;strong&gt;natural language&lt;/strong&gt; (or, better, its dialects), and prescription should be used only when necessary. I hope that the content of the grammar is properly &quot;transferred&quot; to the Wikis after version 4 (Second Printed Edition) is published, and that everyone can then collaborate  - and not just a few of us per e-mail - with immediate minor changes, and with full concept revisions discussed in the &quot;Community&quot; section, instead of hidden personal discussions.

Nowadays a change in concept agreed by us is shown somewhere in our websites within weeks, but isn&#039;t implemented until many months have gone by, due to the limited time we have, and many (&quot;wrong&quot;) writings of every concept remain elsewhere... That is apparent e.g. in the Etymological notes, if you compare the revised notes (1-70) with the following ones.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Mithridates:</p>
<p>With &#8220;the expected changes in MIE concept(s)&#8221; I meant the logical changes that follow the newest conceptions agreed on in our Indo-European revival project.</p>
<p>To understand it, one needs to have followed the previous changes in the Indo-European revival concept, which can be inferred (not easily, that&#8217;s true) from recent changes in the grammar and in our websites. Almost every writing in or about MIE &#8220;drags&#8221; so to speak older (now deemed more or less &#8220;wrong&#8221;) concepts, and they have to be revised accordingly in new writings and newer versions of the grammar: hence the adjective &#8220;expected&#8221;, different from &#8211; for example &#8211; the new section included, &#8220;Indo-European in Use&#8221;, or some sections deleted, which were not &#8220;expected&#8221;.</p>
<p>The MIE conceptions are more or less summarized by the different Grammar version numbers, but simplifying them, as in the book, we could say that:</p>
<p><strong>1)</strong> &#8220;Europaio&#8221; (from the first grammar, <em>Europaio: A Grammar of the European Language</em>) was a very simple concept of using a modern (but common) Late Proto-Indo-European language. It was <strong>more prescriptive than descriptive</strong>, &#8220;choosing&#8221; &#8211; more or less arbitrarily &#8211; to use certain cases, to use some (modern) vocabulary and not other, to write laryngeals with their later output, etc.</p>
<p><strong>2) </strong>Modern Indo-European was a revision of that simple Europaio concept, trying to bring it to a <strong>more natural Late PIE</strong>, with the introduction of etymological notes, further explanations, etc. It tried to overcome the &#8220;Esperanto-like&#8221; appearance of the first (prescriptive) Europaio, but still that revived Late PIE seemed too artificial, as it selected European dialectal nominal and verbal forms.</p>
<p><strong>3) </strong>The 3rd version meant a full revision of the verbal system and an introduction to the Late PIE syntax &#8211; instead of just a selected modern European one. The inclusion of the concept of the<strong> Northwestern dialect </strong>was necessary, as it was obvious that we couldn&#8217;t use Late PIE, but a common, modern European PIE without laryngeals, and thus we had to select some dialectal form (in our case, EIE). A purer PIE vocabulary was recommended.</p>
<p><em>&#8211; Here came the first printed edition, planned for march,  published in august, but still with a lot of paragraphs and whole sections left uncorrected in the rush &#8211;</em></p>
<p><strong>4) </strong>Following that (v.3) concept of the Europe&#8217;s Indo-European language (EIE) to be revived, the necessary emphasis is put on the revival of dialectal Proto-European, as well as on the reconstruction of common Middle Proto-Indo-European or Indo-Hittite (PIH) roots for etymology, as a way to know how to reconstruct the vocabulary for <strong>other living PIE dialects</strong> at the time when EIE was spoken, i.e. Proto-Greek, Proto-Indo-Iranian and Common Anatolian. Instead of a unified scheme, a plural (natural) one has to be accepted, however difficult it might be to implement.</p>
<p>I think it is more or less evident from each minor change made to the grammar, and obviously in full revisions, that the underlying concept remains the same (a <strong>common PIE for Europe</strong>), but that it needed (and needs) to be specific about every detail of the language(s) we want to revive, especially taking on account that they are reconstructed (AKA &#8220;hypothetical&#8221;) proto-languages. </p>
<p>It is, in any case, a revival of a <strong>natural language</strong> (or, better, its dialects), and prescription should be used only when necessary. I hope that the content of the grammar is properly &#8220;transferred&#8221; to the Wikis after version 4 (Second Printed Edition) is published, and that everyone can then collaborate  &#8211; and not just a few of us per e-mail &#8211; with immediate minor changes, and with full concept revisions discussed in the &#8220;Community&#8221; section, instead of hidden personal discussions.</p>
<p>Nowadays a change in concept agreed by us is shown somewhere in our websites within weeks, but isn&#8217;t implemented until many months have gone by, due to the limited time we have, and many (&#8220;wrong&#8221;) writings of every concept remain elsewhere&#8230; That is apparent e.g. in the Etymological notes, if you compare the revised notes (1-70) with the following ones.</p>
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		<title>By: Mithridates</title>
		<link>http://dnghu.org/Indo-European/2009/01/the-collaborative-textbook-a-grammar-of-modern-indo-european-already-in-pre-version-4-heading-for-its-second-printed-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-1756</link>
		<dc:creator>Mithridates</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:12:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dnghu.org/Indo-European/?p=359#comment-1756</guid>
		<description>&gt;Apart from the expected changes in MIE concept (viz. EIE, PIH, etc.) 

Not sure what this is about. Can you explain in more detail?

Besides that it&#039;s good to see an update here. I&#039;ll probably put a post up on the blog about that today.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;Apart from the expected changes in MIE concept (viz. EIE, PIH, etc.) </p>
<p>Not sure what this is about. Can you explain in more detail?</p>
<p>Besides that it&#8217;s good to see an update here. I&#8217;ll probably put a post up on the blog about that today.</p>
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